Been gaslighted by a narcissist? This episode is your escape plan.
John & Melissa Rymer, survivor coaches, share their story & the tools they used to ditch the all drama. They'll break down the manipulation & how to become a Victim to Warrior. Think secret online support, 10-step recovery, & how to trust again.
Worried about dating post-abuse? The Rymers got your back! Background checks & spotting red flags - you'll be a dating pro.
Heal, rebuild, & thrive. This episode is your arsenal for a happy, narcissist-free future!
Get in touch with John & Melissa:
Website: www.thev2w.com
Truthfinder: https://tracking.truthfinder.com/?a=1484&oc=27&c=404&s1=podcast
Private Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thev2w
This episode is brought to you by Premier Ridge Capital.
Sign Up for our Newsletter and get our FREE E-Book where you'll learn everything you need to know about creating financial freedom through multifamily syndication.
Visit www.premierridgecapital.com now!
Introducing the 60 Day Deal Finder!
Visit: www.MartinREIMastery.com
Use the Coupon Code: WEALTHYAFfor 20% off!
This episode is brought to you by Premier Ridge Capital.
Build Generational Wealth As A Passive Investor In Multifamily Real Estate Syndication!
Visit www.premierridgecapital.com to find out more.
Been gaslighted by a narcissist? This episode is your escape plan.
John & Melissa Rymer, survivor coaches, share their story & the tools they used to ditch the all drama. They'll break down the manipulation & how to become a Victim to Warrior. Think secret online support, 10-step recovery, & how to trust again.
Worried about dating post-abuse? The Rymers got your back! Background checks & spotting red flags - you'll be a dating pro.
Heal, rebuild, & thrive. This episode is your arsenal for a happy, narcissist-free future!
Get in touch with John & Melissa:
Website: www.thev2w.com
Truthfinder: https://tracking.truthfinder.com/?a=1484&oc=27&c=404&s1=podcast
Private Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thev2w
This episode is brought to you by Premier Ridge Capital.
Sign Up for our Newsletter and get our FREE E-Book where you'll learn everything you need to know about creating financial freedom through multifamily syndication.
Visit www.premierridgecapital.com now!
Introducing the 60 Day Deal Finder!
Visit: www.MartinREIMastery.com
Use the Coupon Code: WEALTHYAFfor 20% off!
This episode is brought to you by Premier Ridge Capital.
Build Generational Wealth As A Passive Investor In Multifamily Real Estate Syndication!
Visit www.premierridgecapital.com to find out more.
This is Wealthy AF, and what does it really mean to be wealthy? Is it just about money in your bank account, or is there more to it? And today's guest is John and Melissa Reimer. And after retiring from the financial service industry, john and Melissa decided to help others by coaching what they learned through their survival of narcissists abuse. That's today's topic, guys Narcissists abuse, the relationship before and after.
Speaker 1:John and Melissa are narcissists abuse survivors themselves, who spent many terrifying years married to dangerous narcissists who wanted to destroy them mentally, physically and financially. They were able to protect themselves from complete financial ruin while rebuilding their lives by using knowledge and expertise gained from their lifelong careers and their financial industry. Guys, welcome, thank you for being here and thank you for being so willing and open to share your story and help others through. Maybe they might be going. Thanks for having us. So, guys, why don't we start there? Why don't you start telling us that story? What is exactly narcissists abuse? Let's start there and then tell us your story of how you both experienced narcissists abuse in your previous relationships.
Speaker 2:Well, when I went through it, it was about 10 years ago and I had no idea what a narcissist was. I just knew something was terribly wrong with my relationship with my husband. He was completely different than who I thought he was. And that's the problem with narcissists is, if they showed their true colors right off the bat, no one would be interested in, there would be no victims. But that's not what they do. They basically become the perfect person for you by listening to what you want, what your feelings are, what's important to you, and they start mirroring your desires.
Speaker 2:When you first meet someone, you start talking a lot about your past, your future, what your goals are. The narcissist at the beginning of the relationship is all interested in all of that. All of a sudden, they're starting to talk about things that they did that match what you do common interests, hobbies. All of it is a lie. That's the problem. So a victim is falling in love with a fake individual. This individual is just putting on a facade to lure their victims in, and it's always because they want something from that victim. It could be money, it could be status, it could be their home. They have a goal in mind to make their lives better by taking it from the victim.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, by the time the victim is aware of what's happening, it's really too late. You're invested in the relationship, you've fallen in love with who you think is your soulmate. You might be married, you might have already had children. Then all of a sudden, gradually, that mass starts coming off. That's what makes it so difficult for victims to leave, because they keep thinking the good person's going to come back. Maybe if they do something this way, or they don't say that, or they clean the house better, or they make better meals, or they listen to their husband, their wife every single thing they're doing is trying to correct something that cannot be corrected, because a narcissist is never going to change who they are. They're never going to take accountability, they're never going to apologize sincerely, no matter what the victim does.
Speaker 2:The bar just keeps getting higher and higher and higher and no one can reach it. No one can reach the level of perfection a narcissist wants from their victim. When you can't reach that, then all of a sudden you're a failure to them, you're a disappointment. They start discarding you and looking for someone to take your place. It's extremely devastating, mentally, physically. They can be physically abusive. They can be very, very much so financially abusive. What I mean by that? They want total control of the money. Gradually they start transitioning the victim to either putting money in their account, working, handing over their paycheck, and little by little the victim gives up their financial independence. You can't really do anything without money If your abuser is controlling it. You literally are stuck and controlled and bullied and threatened by a person who has all the control and you have none of it. That's where John and I documented our steps. I won't tell his story for him, but I started journaling because I really thought I was losing my mind with all the gaslighting that lies.
Speaker 1:I saw a video you guys did about that that you did about that, melissa where you guys did a skit, where something about if you got a bank account and you confronted it with a skit, but you confronted the narcissist saying, hey, I've never seen this. The narcissist was like, well, this is business and just controlling the money, just to all of that, to your point.
Speaker 3:You just brought up a great point about our skits. That's something that has made our social media platforms just explode over the past year, because we do reenactment skits and show people really what the financial abuse looks like or the mental abuse is great, the gaslighting, all of these things. So people are like, oh my gosh, how did you get in my house, how did you know what was going on in my relationship? It's because we've been there. We love to show people this is what really happens. We try to coach with that. We try to show okay, this is what it looks like, here is how you can bat this, this particular type of abuse. We're really, really excited about doing those and we keep putting those up regularly just to keep informing people about what it looks like and what to do with it.
Speaker 2:Because many times you are in denial, like we were. You don't understand what's happening. When you start seeing what looks like is going on in your own life your own, maybe your parents' life, maybe your sister's life, someone you love when you start seeing what the abuse actually looks like, then it dawns on them. I think this is what I'm dealing with. Once they accept that, that's when they're reaching out to us and saying okay, now what? What do we do? How do I get out of this if he's controlling the money? That's a thing they're doing multiple programs depending on where they are on their journey to help them literally combat this.
Speaker 1:Right here. So I'm listening to you guys, and A few weeks ago we had a guest on the podcast His name is Bill Mitchell and I'm listening to and my brain is connecting some patterns here. This gentleman had his daughter. His daughter was murdered. Yeah, we heard the podcast. Right, you heard that.
Speaker 1:Devastating Harvard I mean absolutely devastating, just horrible thing, and he's taking in here doing something positive with it. But I'm seeing a lot of connections. My brain is connecting a lot of the behaviors. One thing I learned was with him was love bombing, and it seems like what you just mentioned, melissa, with that mirroring and making you think, is the perfect partner. I just learned that word a few weeks ago when I interviewed Bill and I learned that terminology, love bombing and it seems like that's part of the behavior and this thing can get. If you don't identify that behavior early on, the worst of it can happen, which is unfortunately what happened in Bill's daughter situation. John, would you share your story with us? Tell us what that was like for you as a man?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Mine was a little bit farther in the past, in the early 2000s, you know, 20 years ago we had no idea what a female narcissist is or was. I mean it took Johnny Depp really to bring it to the forefront several years ago about what a female narcissist actually looks like and what they're capable of. It is unbelievable what they can do. You know they hide behind this facade of beauty or talent or success and their goal is to destroy you, whether it's financially or mentally, typically with a female narcissist. But you don't see it coming.
Speaker 3:My ex-Norcan I dated for several years. There were red flags that I just continued to ignore and we'll get more into red flags, hopefully later in the interview. I ignored all the red flags. I really really did, because I saw this person that I thought was perfect for me. She was beautiful, she was wanting to be successful, but she really saw me as a target and I didn't realize that until it was too late.
Speaker 3:It was a couple of months after we got married. The mass dropped off and I saw who she really was and she was trying to basically take everything from me financially, my business, my home, my savings I mean everything that I had. And when I told her after just a couple of months of marriage, I said listen, I think we've made a mistake, I think we should get a divorce. And that's the worst thing you tell a narcissist you're leaving, because then the war really begins. The smear campaign starts.
Speaker 3:He told everybody my friend's family that I was physically abusing her, which is a horrible thing for a man to have to go through is trying to tell people that he really isn't Try to destroy my company. It was just unbelievable how much I had to pay her just to leave. It was basically extortion and the thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars that I had to pay just for her to go away after just a couple of months of marriage, with no kids, no physical abuse, no nothing. It was unbelievable. But I was a target. And again, we didn't know what a female narcissist was back then. We really, really didn't, and what women can be capable of if they're a narcissist. And so we created a whole series on our social media platforms called the Female Narcissist series and basically it just shows what these people are capable of through the red flags to look for Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Can you tell us what that cycle looks like in a woman? What were some of the things that she did, that you realize during those couple of months of marriages that you were like whoa, wait a minute, and you mentioned above the surface a little bit. Can you go a little bit into more details so that people can get the picture and see what that looks like?
Speaker 3:Absolutely Two major events happened that really should have had me pump in the brakes and say, no, we can't. About a month or two before we got married, I ran a family business that we had had for probably a decade before this time. And here we are, I'm marrying a woman, bringing her into my family, and we wanted to protect the family business. I mean, who wouldn't want to do that? Of course I mean we don't really For responsibility, exactly, martin, it's your responsibility. So I said, hey, listen, we need to do that. We need to do a prenup that just lays out the business. It protects the business for a certain period of time after we're married so that, no matter what happens, you cannot go after my business.
Speaker 3:She threw a huge fit, got my whole family involved, tried to make me feel horrible about wanting her to sign the spreenup Any woman that you're getting married to, or man and you say, hey, listen, I want to do a prenup to protect my business that my family has built years, jeff, for so many years. That really shouldn't be a problem, should it? I mean, somebody says, yeah, I'm looking forward to our marriage and a family and all that, and if you feel that this is what you need to do to protect your family's business just for five years. Let's say, after five years it goes away, or whatever the case is. That shouldn't be a massive problem, but for her it was, because I was a target, so that was a major red flag that I did not see. Yeah, and one other thing happened this is embarrassing for me to talk about. We had a horrible fight. She was just being belligerent and so I locked myself into my bedroom our bedroom, I should say. I just said listen, just stay away, we just need to be apart from each other because it was getting bad. It was a bad argument, so I locked myself in the bedroom just to kind of let things calm down. About 10 seconds later, marvin, all of a sudden I see her foot come through our door, kicking the door open. So at the time I just thought I need to get the law involved with this. This is getting dangerous. So I picked up the phone, I hit 911 and then I hung up. I said no, I know I'm not going to do that. Well, if you've ever called 911, you know you can't do that.
Speaker 3:They set the police to my house and my brother lived down the street, so I had him come over and just so he could be there in support and just say hey, listen, talking to the police. I was very calm sitting in my dining room. She came out and had rubbed her neck red. It told the police officer that I had been strangling her. Now my brother went ballistic because he knows I'm not a violent guy. That way. I would never hurt a woman, never touch a woman, and we've been together for 10 years, she knows. And so the police officer was smart enough to know look, we just need to separate you guys. You're going to have to go somewhere else, john, you're going to have to spend the night somewhere else. And I did.
Speaker 3:What a huge red flag, martin, this woman. I could have been arrested. That's a felt war to murder, huge. And they all you know. Yeah, all she wanted to do was win that situation, because that's what narcissists do. And if you heard Johnny Depp's testimony, the same thing happened with Amber Hurte. She tried to have him arrested, tried to have all these horrible things done and ruin his career. That's what they do. But the unfortunate thing for me is I still married this woman. I mean, what a war. That's what took me so long. We'll talk about recovery just a little bit. But that's what so long to recover Martin from the abuse was. I felt I had been so manipulated and ignored the red flags. It took me years to forgive myself for letting this woman come into my family. It was a very, very horrible situation for the entire family, but just that, almost trying to ruin my life. And I knew better. I knew I saw the signs but I ignored them because I didn't realize what I was doing.
Speaker 2:And you love that person regardless of what they're doing. You've already fallen in love with them. So having to fall in love with them because of these drastic measures is very difficult for the brain to comprehend, and that's the reason people, it's hard for them to leave and they can easily be hoovered back by love bombing and all this. Then you forgive because you think the normal person came back. It's all a ploy.
Speaker 3:So all a trick, and that's exactly what happened to me. I remember I went to my parents' house. They lived in the same community. They were actually in overseas. The next day, ringing the doorbell, ringing the doorbell, she was there crying, begging forgiveness. I'm so sorry and I forgave her. You know, that's just. I just forgave her, thinking yeah, she blamed it on the meds she was taking and mixing it with alcohol, and I believed her. And they give very good excuses, right, and they're manipulators. They absolutely are.
Speaker 1:You know, you mentioned something that really stuck out to me when you asked for that prenup. Right, you said it. We know better. That was a big red flag for me. I hear that and I'm saying major red flag, right.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, been married 22 years. We just made 22 years married last weekend. Congratulations, thank you. And a lot of people don't realize, when they're going into a relationship, something I learned about 10 years ago and it's that money and love are two different things. I was with my wife, fully connected with her, we're in bed and we're just just super connected or on whatever topic we're talking. There's no space for money when the money, the money we have, or whatever investments we have there is, there's no room for it between us. And while we're talking business, it's business, that love this, there's no love. That's just we're on that. And a lot of people don't realize that.
Speaker 1:Listen, I want to go to you as a woman. It must be really difficult for a woman. I think it must be even harder for a woman. I'm not saying that your experience was easier, john. Your experience you had a family, business and things, but as a woman it must be challenging to get out. You know it's. Women are so much more in tune to what's going on. Us men we're so. We're out there, getting it, providing, doing, and sometimes just things just fly over our heads. But women, you women, are so much more in tune with the underlying thing. Something's not wrong here, something's wrong here. You know how do you get away, how do you get out safely?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and in my situation I met him in church. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And divorce recovery and he was still married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was still married. I found out years later that he was still married, but his wife wanted a divorce, so he was here, narcissist right there yeah.
Speaker 2:And in they listen to your story. And you know I had sold a company, so I was the one with the money, I was the one that had the house of money and man, he just saw that as amazing place to lodge into and get his claws into me. So but they play on your vulnerability. I mean, he was this major romantic person. I mean doing all these gestures of romance, you know, just taking me on these dates. You know, boat, that wasn't even his. I didn't know it at the time. You know I laid cows that was in foreclosure. He told me he sold it.
Speaker 2:There were all these lies. I found out after the fact, but before that I was falling deep. I mean, he knew everything that I liked because I shared it. I shared my heart with the small group in church. All of these people were my friends. He was the enemy. I just didn't know it at the time. So we had, you know, dated a year or engaged a year, and then we got married. Six months into the marriage things started changing. Now he had already convinced me to sell my home and buy a bigger home and I did. It was in my name, my money. He was a entrepreneur, although I'm not even sure what that is, because he just was so secretive about his business. But six months after we were in, something was wrong. I mean he started a-.
Speaker 1:Marriage six months after marriage or date.
Speaker 2:And I'd known him for three years. Six months after marriage he started mistreating my son from previous marriage. He started doing things that weren't making sense. Money was missing. He wanted a sports car, but you know he didn't want his business to be in Jeopardy. So could I co-sign for him? Things started gradually not adding up for me, and when I approached him with it and I said listen, this is not making me feel comfortable. I'm not going to take out loans and help you with these businesses. You know I'm a corporate executive with a financial company. And he said well, we're married, so what's yours is mine. And I'm like no, and I didn't have a prenup. I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2:And from that moment forward, his entire plan was to get as much from me as he could. I mean stealing money from my accounts, telling me he was doing repairs on the house. I would write the check to him because he was managing it. And then the repairs didn't get done but the money was gone. So getting away from him the only thing that got him out of my home. Because I asked for a divorce. He said well, then pack up and leave. I'm like we're in my home because I don't care, I'm not leaving. You're the one that wants the divorce. You get out. I'm like I'm not leaving my own home.
Speaker 2:So it had it basically turned violent over, you know, the next month or two and I called the police and I got a restraining order against him. That was the only way I could get him out of my house. And from that moment forward is when I was changing the locks, I was putting in cameras, I mean I was really afraid of him, I mean physically afraid of him, just because of the things that he did. I mean he called the police on me, said I was trying to kill him, said I was trying to kill him with a knife and that he was high. Actually, using my cell phone, this is after he threw me out of a moving car and so when the police got to the house, they were coming to arrest me and I had a broken hand. He was drunk and, thank God, they believed me and they took him away. But these are the things that they will do to destroy you and get what they want. It is never about the person, it's about what they can get from you?
Speaker 1:How did that abuse affect your self-esteem? And I like to get each of your perspective.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll start. It took me, again, years to recover, and that's why we created our 10 step recovery program to help others who have gone through this divorce. It's like any type of abuse that you've suffered you have to figure out a way to recover from it. You're going to recover from it eventually. It's like why don't we shorten this period so that it takes less time to recover?
Speaker 3:But my biggest thing, martin, I couldn't do myself for being manipulated. I'm a pretty smart guy at least I believe I am and business owner, things like that and so I just felt like how could I have been manipulated so easily? And I fell for all the manipulation and I just couldn't forgive myself. So the thing that helped me, martin, the most was I got in a recovery group Of like-minded men. It was like a divorce recovery, because we didn't know what narcissism was back then. So I joined the support group and that's where I really started to understand how to forgive myself. Other men telling me look, john, look, this happened. You fell for these things. You just need to kind of forgive yourself and move on and put it in a rearview mirror.
Speaker 3:And that's why we've created a support group. It's a it's an anonymous group on Facebook Called the victim to warrior method. And it's, it's, it's chock, for there's over 1100 members now and the support group Just an amazing support group you can't even find it on Facebook. You have to use a link in our bio, very safe and safe environment and and so people can go in there and really, hey, this is going on with me, this is going, no matter where you are in your chair share that so people don't have to look for that later.
Speaker 1:Can you share that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they could just go to our website V V, 2 W comm and V with it and then a to number two yeah, w V 2 W comm, and it just says join our Facebook.
Speaker 1:We will make sure we put that in the show notes as well for you guys, so you guys can. But, yeah, you want to go right now. If you're listening and you want to go right now, you're like, hey, I need get in that group and and talk to to these guys, to John and Melissa, yeah, right now it's an amazing group of like-minded people and that's the only thing, because you know your friends and family.
Speaker 3:They're like what are you talking about?
Speaker 3:They have no clue how to help you recover from this abuse because they don't know that it's like right.
Speaker 3:So we thought and that was the thing that helped me the most in my recovery and that's in our, in our 10 step process, the most important thing that I think is now Melissa will differ. She thinks journaling and other things are more important than but they're all critical to recovery, but joining a good support group for this is Critical to overcoming the abuse and that was what really really helped me. But in our abuse recovery series, melissa, I document the 10 steps that we use and and put that together in a plan that if someone has suffered narcissistic abuse or really any type of of Abusive relationship, they can use these steps that include like meditation, physical activity, support group Journaling all of these important things that you can do just to make yourself finding your passion, all the important things to recover from the abuse that you've suffered and if someone is in the abuse, we actually have a 12-step it's a critical step Platform so they can plan a safe exit strategy, because when people are in it, they don't know how to get out of it.
Speaker 2:So we're we were very methodical with this 12 critical step platform that walks in through each and every step to take Before they leave. So they are in a good place when they leave, they're not financially devastated and they're they are stronger to Not be hoovered back into that relationship by forgiving them right. So sometimes your mind is just overwhelmed when you're going through it. So that's why we put these steps together. But people who are in it and want to get out of it right, Melissa?
Speaker 1:what? What impact did it have for you as it pertains to your self-esteem?
Speaker 2:Well, I thought I would never, ever, ever, get into serious relationship or get married again. Yeah, I had a lot of one first dates because then, all of a sudden, I would, I would see a red flag, or I thought I saw red flag or something like a red flag, and then they were like how about another date I might know? So, until I met John, who was introduced to me by a mutual friend of ours, someone who worked for me for 25 years and John went to college with, knew both of us separately and knew, you know, we were single, and he said I think you guys would actually be perfect together. And that was after being single. John had been single for ten years, I had been single for like four, and it was that night we met. That night and that was it. It literally God was there, because it just the spark was there. I didn't feel threatened, I didn't feel nervous, but we took three years before we got married, just making sure we were both comfortable with the relationship.
Speaker 1:Very, very. That was my next question how do you trust again? I interviewed Dr W Iber last week I don't know if you guys heard that podcast and we talk about trust in me, trail, which is you know. I would imagine that this feels like a betrayal when you're, when you're, when you come out in the end of the other side. Absolutely, how do you trust again? What, what, what's your process? You know, I would imagine that, as a fellow human being going through something like that, you'd say, hell, no, like I would be super, your amygdala would be on super high alert. And yes, he told me he was gonna be here five minutes ago. He didn't show up. So boom red flag, right, you just yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, yeah, we'd be amazed how many people we do. We do live events on our TikTok channel and our Instagram channel and Thousands of people come in. They're like I'm never gonna date again, never gonna date again, never gonna date. But as humans, we want companionship, or we're made for that, and so you have to heal In order to be that the person you're looking for is looking for. I always say that I'm the person you're looking for is looking for, but what that means is becoming a whole person again so that you can trust again. But you need to know those red flags when they Arise and so, and then you know what to do with them. So it's really, really important to be on your game when you decide to start dating again.
Speaker 3:Now what Melissa and I talked about quite a bit and there was just an article posted this week on us with a company called Truthfinder. Just real quick about Truthfinder if you're fine, if you're dating someone that you've met online, it's really, really hard To try to rely. Is it terrible? Yeah, yeah, great. It's a third-party, anonymous background check where you can really go in and find out. Okay, is this person still married? Do they have a restaurant? They have a restaurant, yeah, I mean all out the agency judgment Anything that's been filed against is that a it's effort of the?
Speaker 1:I would imagine. And $23. Port. It's worth it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, but we always say if Melissa would have checked her Truthfinder before she got married with this guy, she would have never married him. It's a rat the other way.
Speaker 2:Dollars in trouble with the IRS.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I arrest leans, catch leans, all of these things that are public records. So it's not like do you want?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if they're just public records and which you would know to do it If you didn't know where to go, right? So if someone has that kind of shadiness in their background, that's a red flag in itself. There are other people out there that you would probably want to spend more time with than someone who has a Criminal background and all these horrific things. Yeah, about them. And it's early on, you can cut ties. You're not emotionally invested when you pull this, so you know who you're actually dealing with. If somebody's got that kind of background, yeah what? Hey, I'm just not ready to be in a relationship they don't know you've done it. It's anonymous, so you can just say you know what. I thought I was ready, but I'm really not so it really is a multi pronged approach.
Speaker 3:You know where you you become resilient yourself, stronger yourself, through your recovery, through the things that you do you're not looking for someone to complete you, right.
Speaker 2:You are a whole person.
Speaker 3:You can survive alone and be happy and using a platform like Like truth finder, I think, can help you just understand the person. Great tool, yeah, yeah, it's a great, great tool. It really, really is amazing tool.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about red flags now, because I want to get into that, because I want to give people some meat and potatoes. I think throughout the conversation, you've given us a bunch of red flags. Let's put them. Let's lay them out for people. If your person is doing this early on, for sure and I know you guys do skits on this stuff all the time on your, on your social media let's equip them with some things. What are those things that you guys would say are like for sure? These are the five, ten things you want to look out for and or look into more, right?
Speaker 2:if the person that you just met starts to what we call literally Future faking and mirroring, if they immediately start with. I've never met anyone like you. I have never felt this way before. You are so special. I feel like God put you in my life. Now. This is early on. This is like first, second day, where they start immediately Imagining the future with you. They've taken what you've said and you know I I would one day. We're gonna have a condo on the beach. I love the beach. You know we're gonna have a condo on the beach. We're gonna have a boat. I could just man, I could just see you with my kids. They would be so beautiful.
Speaker 2:When they start that fast into the relate pushing, pushing, pushing with the future, you're everything to them. You are too perfect to be true. That is a huge red flag, because in a normal relationship People don't do that. They get to know each other. Tell me about yourself. Let me tell you about myself. So when they start immediately just bombing you with how awesome you are and how much they can see the Future with you as much as a woman or a man would love to hear that and believe it that is a red flag. No one falls that quickly head over heels on the first or second date. That's when you pull away. When you pull away and they get a little angry or offensive or they start texting you Repet, then you know you dodged a bullet there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe some literally Another red flag. How do they treat their friends and family? Narcissists typically don't have many long-term friends. They just can't keep their friends because everyone they are yeah, everyone's a target, everyone. They need to try to get something from everyone. So, you know, do they have many long-term friends? If they don't, that's a huge red flag. But just just how do they interact with their friends and it's that's important and more importantly, especially in Melissa's case, how do they? How do they treat their family? Yeah, I know that she had major problems with her ex. The way he treated his mom was such disrespect. If you treat, if you treat your mom with that kind of disrespect, how are you going to treat your spouse 100? So, yeah, one of the first dates we had was Mother's Day. I just said, hey, we're having Mother's Day, I'm love for you to come along, meet my mom and all that. And just I was lasered in.
Speaker 1:You were looking for the red flags, right.
Speaker 2:I was walking. Walk, yeah, I was looking for it. Never after pulled out the chair for her, get burned the conversation. Yeah, I know he's very, very. His family is awesome. I can ask for better in law, yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker 3:so that's a huge threat. So make sure that you're focusing on that, because they can't fake that. No, they can't.
Speaker 2:They can't fake their relationship with their family If it's a strained relationship, if, if they're, yeah, they're, yeah or they have no friends and they make excuses why they have no friends, things that are out of the norm, that you kind of sit back and go. Well, it's kind of odd. Think about it. It is odd, write it down, you know.
Speaker 1:Can you give me, give me, give me an example of how they would treat their friends? So you gave me an example of how they would treat a narcissist, would treat their mother. I know you said, john, they don't have any long-term friends, but you also said the way they treat their friends. Give me an example of what treatment is a red flag for a narcissist with their friends.
Speaker 3:For me, the red flag that I ignored was whenever we did something with friends, they were my friends. We never did something with me. Her friend, okay, you know, and then yeah, and so it was really. I just didn't really think about it because she she'd been in Atlanta for several Years, which is where we're from, but but we just didn't interact with her friends and tell them how she acted when you were with your friends.
Speaker 2:I mean, oh yeah, Jealous of any woman that would be in the. Even they were married was so much.
Speaker 3:We went to brunch after after church and I invited a girl friend of mine, just a friend, and the lad known for years Sorry guys for having a thunderstorm here in our little daughter, but my ex-nort stared daggers at this girl Across the table and I didn't, I wasn't aware of it, I wasn't, I didn't realize it. And after, and other people were there too, yeah, but my family was there, my parents, you know. So we had a big group there at the table, but this was a very pretty girl that I had known for years and was just a good friend. And I remember after Brunch the girl came up to me. She said I will never do anything with her again. She looked at me the whole time like she wanted to kill me and we just left church, you know. And so it was just really really bizarre, those types of things.
Speaker 3:And then the most important thing was what I heard from her family. We have a whole video on this. Their Friends and family will warn you her my name, sadly. Yeah, her family did warm. I was with her brother and her brother one time told me he said you know what? She ruined every single family vacation we ever had growing up. And I'm thinking that is really bizarre to hear and of course I just it was just conversation, so I didn't. I didn't really put two and two together Until it was too late, because every time we took a vacation after we were, you know, mary, which was only once our honeymoon it was a horrible experience.
Speaker 2:Definitely ruin events if they're not the center of attention, and this is a characteristic of narcissists. I mean just about every single person we've ever talked to. They will ruin Christmas. They'll run a Thanksgiving East, it doesn't matter what it is. They'll ruin your birthday Anniversary. If it doesn't make them the star of the show, they will ruin it for whoever is the star of the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in fact we have a whole series on surviving the holidays with a narcissist, because really it really is a survival, because it's all about trying they'll destroy it. Yeah, I tried to make sure that don't destroy your holidays, yeah so let's, let's turn it on on the nurse Now.
Speaker 1:Let's give people strategies to turn it on, because I I would imagine now that you know, looking back, that's 15 years back and now you can see on, maybe you've created some strategy. So how can we turn it on the narcs? Someone is in in that, in that relationship, and now they want to turn it on them before, before we start, I'm like Melissa, we've got.
Speaker 3:There's some great tactics that we use. Want everyone to understand these are not cures. Yeah, these are just coping strad strategies, because there is no cure. Yeah, it's, it's never gonna. It's never gonna. You're never gonna be able to fit it.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna fix them no no, and they won't know the accountable and they won't apologize and they won't change. They might trick you into thinking that they're gonna change. So when we talk to people and people ask us, what if we go to counseling with that help? The answers no, it's not gonna help because they don't think anything's wrong with them. They think something's wrong with you because you have a problem with them. So they'll either lie to the counselor they won't like counselor or they'll say you are the one that needs counseling, not me, because you're the one with all the problems.
Speaker 2:So it doesn't even matter what strategies you try to put in place to fix the narcissist. It's impossible. They can't be fixed, they don't want to be fixed. They literally think they're superior to everyone else and so you just need to adapt to them. So we never, ever, encourage someone to stay with a narcissist, like Long-term, like it's gonna change. We can help them gradually get out of that relationship or out of that marriage by doing it very Strategically and safely.
Speaker 2:It could take a while. But telling someone, yeah, go ahead, and you know, just see if it gets better, no, it will never, ever, ever change, it will only get worse. So Turning it back on them is actually leaving, blocking them and staying gone. That right there is. It's a defeat to the narcissist and they can't stand losing. But you have to be diligent about it. You know you have to be very, very diligent, and Blocking them after you leave is crucial. If you have kids, you can communicate through a third-party app. We recommend talking parents because it lets you communicate through a third-party app where you don't have to see them, you don't have to talk to them, you don't have to read their evil text messages, you don't have to listen to their horrible emails or our voice mails. So you can co-parent with a narc. You just have to do it strategically. If you have no kids, leaving them and pretending you lock them in a safe and through it into the ocean and you also through the key in there. That's how you have to think about that narcissist.
Speaker 3:They can never be part of your life again but let's and Martin, I know you asked about coping mechanisms until our strategies. Let's say we recommend and we talked about gray rock, oh yeah, a lot is a great method, because you can't win an argument with a narcissist. Okay and so, and it takes two people to argue, so we call we, we say if they're starting in on you and they're arguing, being belligerent, what have you? We say gray rock, and what I mean by that is think of yourself as a rock. You can't argue with a rock. Have you ever had an argument with a rock? You can't, and you won't win. You have to do yeah, just be uninterested, uninteresting, notting the head as an answer, just no eye contact, just you know. And again, this is not a fix, this is a coping mechanism. Gray rock will typically, it makes the narcissist want to disengage because they're not getting from you what they want the emotional outburst or breaking.
Speaker 3:Right. So gray rock is a great way to just diffuse situations Now. Over time it might get to the point where he what?
Speaker 2:kind of life is that you want to do that long term. You want to do it to cope while you plan your exit strategy and just how To keep your sanity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we talked about big events. They want to ruin big events Instead of feeding into that gray rock, just gray rock. We have a whole document on how to gray rock, so if someone wants more information about that, they can reach out to us and we can share with that gray rock. Also, you know, one of the things that narcissists like to do is they like to give you the silent treatment, and these silent treatments can last days, weeks, months. It's amazing. They're so childish and a lot of times victims feel like they have to feed into the silent. Why are you not talking to me? What can I do better?
Speaker 2:What in the world I'm so sorry for whatever I did and I don't even remember now.
Speaker 3:So what re-coach? And Melissa is a certified life coach, also a professional life coach too, so we have a lot of techniques that she has learned through her life coaching business. But to feed into the silent treatment is not a good way to go. If you're getting a silent treatment, enjoy it as a vacation from the narcissist. You want to do what you want.
Speaker 2:For worse. They're not controlling you, they're ignoring you.
Speaker 3:Go to the gym, work out, have lunch with friends, Whatever Don't feed into the silent treatment, enjoy the silent treatment. So there's all sorts of things that go on.
Speaker 2:Different way of looking at things. While you're figuring out.
Speaker 1:Nice re-coaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as you know, it's funny, We've brought up so many crazy terms today in this podcast. Our brand new series is called the Narcissistic Dictionary, or what we call the Narcidic, and basically it's like why would you have to learn all of these?
Speaker 1:terms. Share a couple with us. Share a couple with us. Educate us a little bit.
Speaker 3:I mean love bombing, hoovery, mirrory, future faking. I mean it's always faking.
Speaker 1:What's future faking. What's future faking?
Speaker 2:Future faking is telling you what you want to hear about the future. Like mine, I wanted to have a beach condo one day. He just said I can just see it. Just let's picture it together. It could be on this ocean.
Speaker 1:So form of hypnosis. You know that right, that's future pacing. We call that future pacing in ILP and into a picture, Right?
Speaker 3:So we did a whole series on this videos showing what future faking looks like. We actually did this. We had our. In future faking is one of our videos. It should be out on TikTok this week. We posted on TikTok but we put together a whole glossary for people so they'd understand these Lies, monkeys yeah, these crazy terms.
Speaker 1:What is that? What's flying monkeys?
Speaker 2:Flying monkeys. If you remember the Wizard of Oz how she sent her little monkeys out to spy and grab, you know Toto and Dorothy. Flying monkeys are people that might be joint friends with the victim and the narcissist. But the narcissists are always so charming, so charismatic. Most of the time People think they're just perfect outside of the house. They don't realize they're you know, mr Hyde inside the house. And so when you, as a victim, confide into a joint friend, a joint friendship, you might tell the wife oh my God, this is what's going on, I don't know what to do. Something's crazy. Well, that wife tells her husband. That husband goes back and tells the narcissist. So now the narcissist knows you are talking about the relationship to someone else. So then they put a spin on the story about well, she's having problems, she's over, she's taking antidepressants and she's drinking. That's why she's crazy. So then, all of a sudden, you, the person that's the victim, you start talking to that friend again. They're like hmm see, she's acting like this because she's drinking and she's missing drinking.
Speaker 2:So then all of a sudden they think you're the problem and so then they just kind of sit back and treat you differently and then you have no idea why. But it's because you cannot trust say this if somebody's friends with your narcissist, you cannot trust them. That is not a person you wanna tell anything to. You can only confide in Anything like that. Yes, you can only confide in people that have your back and absolutely love you and support you. Those are the people you need to confide in, because they'll be there forever and they're not one side with the narcissist.
Speaker 3:Very impactful, very, very. But yeah, so we put together a whole gloss of dictionary, like we said, and you can find it on our bio also. But it's just trying to understand what's going on in your relationship and it's again, what a crazy relationship to have. It's not normal where you have to understand these crazy terms of you. Know what's going on in your relationship. It's incredible.
Speaker 3:So, again, you know, we just there's always strength and information, so we wanted to put this out there so people understood. Oh, okay, so I'm being gaslit. I understand. Now Don't believe it. Yeah, I don't believe. So, all of these things. So there is always power with knowledge. And so we try to with our videos and our documents that we give out and our courses, yeah, just trying to inform people on what they're going through, how to get out of it, if they're still in it and if they've gotten out but they're not recovering. You know, you asked me several times, mark, how did I get past it? How did I get past it? A lot of people take years, six, seven, eight years to try to recover and they just stop. Yeah, and so we try to help those people too, because we know exactly what it's like to go through these things.
Speaker 2:And feel isolated and alone, like nobody understands.
Speaker 1:Maybe there's data, maybe there isn't. I don't know what I'm going to ask anyways. Is there any data to support, on average, how many like a percentage of people that are in relationships and these types of relationships that actually stay, and what effects does that have, if there's any data to it? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:Well, we do know people that are in the relationships who leave, but they're not prepared to leave. 43% of those people go back because of financial devastation. They don't have money. They leave out of desperation or fear. And they get to a place and then they're like I have no idea what to do, I have no money, I've been cut off of everything. Then they go crawling back and then it's worse. Then it's the punishment, the urge to leave them.
Speaker 2:Now statistics show that one in six people have either a narcissist or have narcissistic tendencies or traits. Just because you have narcissistic traits doesn't mean you're a narcissist. You can be gregarious, you can be conceited, you can be one to brag and boast. That doesn't mean you are a narcissist. A narcissist has no empathy, no conscience. They don't care what they do to someone else to get ahead. They'll just step right on you and go over top of you and never even look back to see if they broke your neck when they stepped on you. That's a narcissist People that are in these relationships. I'll tell you, two million people a month search narcissism Two million people on Google.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's amazing Two million searches. So two million people per month are reaching out because they have no idea what they're doing or I need help. And one other thing I wanted to mention Martin, this is a global problem. Clients from everywhere, because when we're on our lives, we have people. I would even have someone from the Paul one on, I mean, on the other side of the world Australia, canada, uk, turkey, greece. I mean all of these different Everyone in the world. It's a global problem, so it's a massive thing and the more information that we can get out there, the more people understand that they are in a relationship that's not normal and there is a way to get out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing you guys are sharing the light and you guys are bringing this conversation to the table, because that's the beauty of the internet and technology. I think we're all old enough to remember when we had no internet and we had phones on the wall Right, we had to. And now, with the internet and even programs like this, and we could get information and educate people, because how many people are out there that are hurting, going through exactly what both of you just said, and they're listening, maybe to this podcast, and saying, oh my gosh, that is my life, that is my partner, that is what I'm going through? Wow, where would we have gotten that information 25 years ago, 20 years ago, right, like how we wouldn't.
Speaker 3:No, and female narcissism. That hasn't even come to the forefront until just a couple of years ago really and again we can thank Johnny Depp for that to bring that to so everyone could see. You can see what happened, and I dealt with this 20 years ago. We had no idea what that was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and thank you. I want to thank you both for what you're doing, because what you're doing is super valuable and you're helping people. What Paying?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, martin, and that's how we call our business victim to warrior. It's a transformation. It's a transformation and we are absolutely right. We want to help as many people on the globe as we can To go from a reactive victim to a proactive warrior.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful. My final question, guys is there anything that I didn't ask you, that I should have asked you, or that you didn't share, that you should have shared? That would bring a tremendous amount of value to the audience, or myself and myself.
Speaker 3:This was a great opportunity, martin. Thank you so much and what a great guide and host you've been. I just want to let people know where they can reach us. If you're on TikTok, instagram, facebook, youtube, we're victim to warrior. They can just type in victim to warrior and find us or V2W. It's just a letter, v2 and then the W, or they can go to our website, thev2wcom, and all our resources are there Our recorded webinars, coaching, one-on-one calls with Melissa.
Speaker 3:There is no better person to help you in any form of a part of the journey that you're in than Melissa. She does one-on-one calls. She has clients that she's had for weeks and months that have transformed, going through divorces, helping them with their settlement process, recovery, leaving I mean wherever they are on the journey but she does an amazing job with that. But we have all sorts of great jobs, all sorts of great. And also one other thing I wanted to mention, martin our financial series. Again, Melissa's a 40-year veteran of the financial industry, but she also was a guest on Oprah Winfrey and Judge Penny's Sister Talk, where she coached thousands and thousands of women financial empowerment resources on how to build back their finances, how to protect their credit.
Speaker 2:How to become empowered and independent so they don't have to rely on someone else for support. They can make their own decisions, because when someone you're relying on someone else financially, they're going to make the decisions for you.
Speaker 3:Right. So our financial series is six videos, all with Melissa really coaching how to put together a budget, how to freeze your credit, how to put together emergency funds so you can. All sorts of great information like that, and it has downloads and a 47-page workbook all sorts of great things to help people with. So I know that's really really a lot of your audience too, with what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Love to have you back, melissa, so we could just talk about that. Yeah, yeah, that would be great and we can have a discussion about that. I think that would be really valuable for the audience to get that information in that perspective.
Speaker 3:So if someone is in a situation where they've lost their job or health problems or what have you, have faced or gone through financial devastation and just don't know where to begin, how do I come back? It might not have happened from abuse. It could have happened from all sorts of different factors the economy, who knows? But there's a way out and so we've created that too. That's a way to go from being devastated financially to recovering from that and moving on and taking your life back. So we put those things together as well, perfect.
Speaker 1:Thank you guys for coming on. It was my pleasure and honor to host you both and you guys sharing all of this wonderful information. Guys, if you're listening, you need to, and you know someone that is going through something like this. Maybe you've seen the sign. Maybe it's your sister, maybe it's your cousin, mother, friend and boss whatever Right, you want to connect with these guys, go to their website. There's resources to help you. At least go and watch their content. I'm sure you'll get value just from that. If you start there, but start somewhere, there's help for you, and if there's someone out there that you think that might be going through this, you might want to share this episode with them. Give them this resource, help someone, share it with someone that you think needs it, because we need to help each other. We need to help each other out Especially, I would imagine it must be terrible. It must be a terrible experience to live with the narcissist. Just based on what you guys told me, it's not a way to live.
Speaker 3:I mean, you cannot Mark. That's the worst problem is the isolation. You're completely isolated and that's why we felt so strongly about building this business this way was to help people, because when we went through it we were totally isolated.
Speaker 2:Many people hope Getting people away out of living a nightmare day in and day out.
Speaker 1:So thank you, guys, really really grateful for what you're doing, really appreciate it. Guys, make sure you follow.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Martin.